[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [Full-disclosure] VPN providers and any providers in general...

On 10/4/2011 6:50 PM, adam wrote:
"That actually depends on the situation, contempt can be criminal. And frankly if you refuse a court order for information like that, the LE officers will just seize it by gunpoint legally, then arrest you."
I'm curious as to what you think would cause contempt to be a criminal offense, especially in that example.
Secondly, without the appropriate warrant - they couldn't legally take anything. If they disregarded that truth and did so anyway, they'd open themselves up to a pretty big lawsuit for violating that individual's civil rights as well as due process. Not to mention, anything found would likely end up being inadmissible because it was obtained illegally.
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Laurelai <laurelai@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:laurelai@xxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: 

    On 10/4/2011 6:35 PM, adam wrote:

    "(Option 3 - the guy heads downtown on a contempt of court charge
    - happens so
    rarely that it's basically a hypothetical)."

    You do realize that (at least in the US) - contempt is *not* a
    criminal offense, don't you?

    On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@xxxxxx
    <mailto:Valdis.Kletnieks@xxxxxx>> wrote:

        On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 03:15:02 EDT, Jeffrey Walton said:
        > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Ferenc Kovacs
        <tyra3l@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:tyra3l@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

        > > As I mentioned before it is hard to expect that a VPN
        provider will
        > > risk his company for your $11.52/month, and maybe they
        would try it
        > > for some lesser case, but what Lulsec did was grant, so
        I'm not
        > > surprised that they bent.
        >
        > "Alleged"

        Yes. So?  In most jurisdictions, "alledged" and "probable
        cause" is sufficient
        to get a court to sign off on a subpoena and/or warrants.

        "Dear Judge:  On Aug 23, a hacker using the handle
        "JustFellOutOfTree" did
        violate Section N, Clause X.Y of the criminal code by hacking
        into
        BigStore.com.  The connection was traced back to the provider
        VPNs-R-Us.  We
        would like a court order requesting VPNs-R-Us to provide any
        and all
        information they may have regarding this user".

        That will usually do it (after bulked up to about 3 pages
        with legalese and
        dotting the t's and crossing the i's).

        The next morning, the manager at VPNs-R-Us gets to his
        office, and finds
        two guys with guns and a signed piece of paper.  At which
        point one of two
        things will happen:

        1) the guy rolls and gives up all the info.
        2) the guy calls his lawyer and makes sure that he gives up
        all the required info,
        and not one byte more.

        (Option 3 - the guy heads downtown on a contempt of court
        charge - happens so
        rarely that it's basically a hypothetical).


        _______________________________________________
        Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
        Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
        Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/




    _______________________________________________
    Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
    Charter:http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
    Hosted and sponsored by Secunia -http://secunia.com/

    That actually depends on the situation, contempt can be criminal.
    And frankly if you refuse a court order for information like that,
    the LE officers will just seize it by gunpoint legally, then
    arrest you.

    _______________________________________________
    Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
    Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
    Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/



http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00754.htm
And they can hold you indefinitely until you comply, or use your lack of compliance as reasonable suspicion to get that warrant, oh and lets not forget that they are declaring kids cyber terrorists and then the patriot act takes effect in cases of suspicion of terrorism, when that happens you don't have any rights anymore. Realistically we should stop calling them rights since they aren't really rights, they are privileges that can be revoked at government convenience. 


_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/